Episode 47 - How to list more homes with Cash Offers!

Episode 47: Using Cash Offers to Get More Listings
Host: Bob Mangold, The Listing Coach
Guest: Danielle Ruiz, Zoom Casa
Podcast: If You List, You Last

In this episode, Bob Mangold dives into the use of cash offers to secure more listings. Bob is joined by Danielle Ruiz from Zoom Casa to discuss the good, the bad, and the advantages of cash offers in today’s real estate market.

Timestamps:

• Introduction & Podcast Overview
  Bob introduces the podcast, thanks listeners, and invites them to join the Real Estate Asset Advisor Facebook group. He also announces they're looking for high-performance agents to grow their listing businesses.
• Mortgage Market Update
  Analysis of the recent BLS jobs report, market disruptions, interest rates, and its impact on consumers.
• Cash Offers in Real Estate
  Danielle Ruiz introduces Zoom Casa’s cash offer program and discusses why cash offers aren’t a one-size-fits-all solution. They cover how the program benefits sellers and agents.
• Ideal Scenarios for Cash Offers
  How cash offers can help families, probate situations, pre-foreclosures, and homeowners needing a quick sale.
• How the Zoom Casa Program Works
  Step-by-step explanation of how Zoom Casa buys properties for full appraised value and provides sellers with flexibility.
• Real-Life Example: Financial Benefits of Cash Offers
  A detailed breakdown of how a seller benefits from receiving a cash offer, advancing funds, and selling for a higher price.
• Commission Structure for Agents
  Discussion on how agents can earn commissions on both transactions and the flexibility in Zoom Casa’s structure for real estate agents.
• Benefits of Pre-Appraising Homes
  Why agents should appraise homes before listing them and how this protects both sellers and agents in securing better deals.
• The Flexibility of Cash Offers
  Further insights into how cash offers provide sellers with flexibility and agents with opportunities to solve client problems.
• Danielle’s Contact Information & Conclusion
  Danielle shares her contact details and the different ways to reach her. 
• Danielle Ruiz danielle.ruiz@zoomcasa.com
• Bob wraps up the podcast by encouraging listeners to reach out for more information.

Join our Facebook Group at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/realestateassetadvisors

Visit our website to watch replays of our Wednesday "Elevate Business Briefings" at: www.RealEstateAssetAdvisors.org

Download a copy of my book, "If you list, you last!" at www.IfYouListYouLast.com

Transcript

It's that time again, if you're a real estate agent and you're looking to finally build a business that creates consistent cashflow, but you're concerned about all of the market disruptions, relax. You'll find your safe haven to learn the secret to success.  List, you last. Welcome to this week's podcast.

Hey, welcome 

fellow listing agents, Bob Mangold, the listing coach. Here with episode 47 of the If You List, You Last podcast. Hey, as always, thanks for listening, sharing, and downloading. Today we're going to talk about using cash offers to get more listings. So grab a cup of coffee and settle in. Now, real quick, just a reminder, make sure you join our Real Estate Asset Advisor Facebook group so you can join in on the conversation, share your thoughts, comments, or questions on any of the topics I discuss right here on the podcast.

And before I get started, one more important topic. We're looking for high performance agents to start and grow a listing agent in markets across the country. Now, if you feel you're the right leader, well actually invest in the marketing and infrastructure of your business without taking any overrides or royalties.

Now, if you're open to a conversation around that, go ahead and join the Facebook group and send me a DM. Now let's get into this week's mortgage market update. On Friday, the vaunted BLS jobs report came out and through complete chaos, into the markets. So on Friday they announced that there were 254, 000 new jobs created versus 140, 000 estimate.

So almost double what we were anticipating. They revised the last two months up 72, 000 and they actually took birth death model and took business or took numbers away from that.  Now, why did that throw the markets into chaos? Well, We haven't seen numbers like this before, and I think everybody can agree that, well, the job market has softened.

All of a sudden, 30 days before an election, we have these massive job numbers come out.  Does anybody really think, especially anybody who's followed the podcast, does anybody really have any faith in  Now here's the interesting thing. ADP, you know the people that process 25 million paychecks a week, actually showed that we lost 8, 000 jobs in the last 30 days.

So how does a private sector who's preparing millions and millions and millions of paychecks have a vastly different number of jobs? Like that, how could that possibly happen?  And then an interesting statistic out of those 254, 000 jobs that were reported 76, 000 of them came from government and health care, which health care is basically government run now So at the end of the day folks, this is just another example of how bls has come in and completely roiled the markets It absolutely decimated the mortgage backed security market, which is actually what determines interest rates on mortgage You It sent those rates, the mortgage backed security bond rates crashing, which means interest rates go up.

And the 10 year treasury at one point was up as many as 15 points. What's that mean? It actually went over 4%, so it moved from under 3. 7 to 4%. Now the 10 year treasury does not really affect mortgage rates. It affects car loans, credit card debt, installment loans, things of that nature. So, By manipulating these numbers, they're actually hurting, again, hurting the consumer, having interest rates go up instead of down.

Now, here's the interesting thing.  They also have what they call a household survey, where they actually call 60, 000 homes. And according to that number,  they added 430, 000 jobs.  Folks, If that isn't proof that they manipulate the numbers, they've talked to 60,000 households  that reported up 430,000 jobs, yet they report to the market 2 54.

Well, where did that come from?  So here's the interesting thing. According to their household survey, remember added 254,000 jobs this month.  231,000 of them  were 16 to 19 year olds.  All the 20, 000 are kids getting jobs. Now here's the interesting thing. This is like, you know, September end of October, we're gathering, I'm sorry, end of August where we're gathering those numbers, that's when kids typically are leaving those jobs.

Cause they're going back to school  yet. We added 231, 000 jobs. From 16 to 19 year olds  pretty interesting, right? Then the participation rate stayed the same now average hourly rate  Actually went up about one tenth of a percent which okay Inflation is bad. Um having rising wages is important But here's the part that the average consumer or anybody hasn't run a business just doesn't seem to grasp when wages go up Hours get cut and so the average hours that were worked has gone down again another one tenth of one percent.

And you go well one tenth of one percent big deal. Well, remember folks that's over hundreds of millions of jobs.  So that's actually a pretty substantial number and all that happens when wages go up hours get cut back or they put automation in place. None of that helps the consumer.  Right? Just look at the minimum wage rate increase in California, what that's done to fast food jobs there. 

That's all you need to understand. They simply get rid of it, or so many fast food restaurants have closed because they simply can't operate fast food. at a profit. So again, 30 days before an election, we have these ridiculous numbers come out, tanks the market. The stock market on Friday had this wild up and down, you know, momentum.

The bond market and the mortgage backed security market didn't have such luck. It was just down, and it was down substantially. So again, this is actually not good for consumers in that respect. And that's again, if we're assuming that we believe the job numbers, Or if we're happy that 19 year old kids had to go out and get a job out of the 254, 000 jobs created  so I hate to harp on that because folks it's just it's radically important because You know as I talk about week to week I still believe that interest rates overall will be somewhere around five and three quarters by the end of the year But I will just tell you this folks.

It is a hundred percent  hinged on who wins that election.  So I'm not going to get into politics here. You figure out who's more business friendly, but I'm just telling you everything is going to be predicated on that.  So even though I do believe that, you know, we'd be at five and three quarters, all bets are off based on what happens on November 5th.

So with that, I hate to be the bearer of Well, technically good news, but realistically bad news, but that's the mortgage market, folks. Okay, let's talk about using cash offers to take more listings now. And I have a special guest today, so let's go. So let's get into this week's topic now, how to use cash offers to take more listings.

Now, I'm joined today by Daniel Ruiz from Zoom Casa, and we're gonna talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly of cash offers. Because Danielle everybody thinks that cash offers like the be all end all it solves every listing solution that they have And that's simply not the case, is it? That is not the case.

You're absolutely right. But there are very specific places where it certainly helps you  Take more listings do more transactions because there is a place for cash offers in the marketplace So like daniel, what would be the best say solutions that you you come across where you know, zoom costs and a cash offer Helps the you know, it could be the seller or the family a lot of times You The ideal candidate is like a family that's selling a property that the parents might have passed away or things like that So like what are the best?

Opportunities, I guess for cash offers. Honestly, that's what I love about our product Um is that in the three plus years that i've been with the company i've seen just about every scenario you can possibly imagine So as a real estate agent Um, understanding the tool and the service that we offer, I think it's such a great thing because it literally could almost work for every scenario.

Everybody kind of picks away and uses it for different things. Uh, there's different benefits. They don't all necessarily benefit, um, or every benefit the program offers doesn't pertain necessarily to every single client, but usually there's a few things that are checking some boxes for them. And I think that's what makes it such a versatile product.

Um, we've helped people from, you know, elderly who need, you know, just the ease and convenience of the program, essentially, you know, family, large families, essentially, who need to cash out quick and move on and not have to deal with the hassles of people coming in and out of the home. We have a lot of people working from home now.

So being able to take a cash off or move on and then all the minutia happens afterwards to sell their home. That's a great convenience that you can't get selling traditionally. And there's a lot of reasons why people may need that. Um, but again, elderly people moving in and out of state people with large families, maybe with a lot of stuff in their home, um, probate situations, pre foreclosure, um, people that, you know,  Right?

Yeah, work.  So essentially with our program, um, it's a two step process essentially. So on the first portion of the transaction, we come in, we essentially purchase the seller's property in cash for the full appraised value value. So what I like about this is that we're giving a fair market value. For the clients home.

Initially, um, our appraisals and inspections that are done up front are done by third parties. Uh, the appraisal essentially is going to determine our purchase price. So we purchase it for that full amount  from there. We typically advance up to 70 percent of that amount up front for the seller, which is great because they can take that.

Pay off the rest of their mortgage or any other debt that they have that they need to clear. Um, it does allow them to be non contingent going into their next purchase if they are looking to buy again. And it gets this off their books. So they wipe the slate clean, they take, you know, any remaining funds from there, and that's typically what gets them into the next home.

So the remaining money after we pay off the mortgage and debt, It can be used for down payment, moving expenses, et cetera.  The great thing about this is we can typically close in as quick as 10 to 15 days. Otherwise, we can do a flexible close option, which allows the seller the flexibility they don't get selling traditionally, where they can stay in the home for an extended period of time.

You know, make the proper arrangements, look for the property, place offers. Make the moving arrangements. Do all the things. Um, you know, we also have situations where it's a time thing. Maybe they're starting a job in a few months. Maybe their kids aren't out of school yet. So again, this gives them that control and certainty they don't have selling, uh, traditionally.

So they set the date that works for them. We close on the property and essentially they're wired their funds and title is transferred within 24 hours. Typically from there, that's when the client's moving on to the next property.  Once that happens and the home is now vacant, we essentially come in, we prepare it for sale as needed.

What's nice about this is, you know, the seller has full control as to what that looks like. You know, everybody has, every agent kind of has a different marketing plan for the property. Some people want to go in, they want to do all the things and sell it for the maximum price. Other people want to do lipstick or maybe just sell it as is and that's fine.

The seller has full control of what that looks like.  Essentially, if they do want to move forward with any of those items. We do have people on staff, designers, project coordinators, and we have a proprietary platform of vendors and contractors we can utilize as well for recommendations and pricing.

Again, we're flexible, so if the agent has contacts, we can use them too. So let me, let me help break this,  let me help break this down for our audience. Agents that are listening. Really anybody that's listening. So let's say a house is a million dollars and you, that's the price that you're agreed on. Just I use that.

'cause the math is simple. Okay. The person would get $700,000 up front. Right? Okay. So they can pay off their loan and do all those things, but the agent looks at it, the seller knows, gosh, if we would've updated the house, we would've done these things. It could be worth $1.2 million. Yeah. Right. You guys will come in, you would. 

I don't want to say front that 700 or the 700, 000, but ultimately that would be the first payoff.  Do the work at a pre agreed price. So let's say that was whatever it would be, 50, 000 or 75, 000. The seller has the right to approve that saying, yep, let's do that at that price. You guys will come in and do that and remarket the property then at, and let's say we sell it at 1.

2 million.  What happens from that point? Sure. Um, so essentially, you know, once the home goes on the market, again, you're correct, the seller determines what work is done, they determine the list price, we get it on the market with the agent of their choice.  They go ahead and market the property and do what they do best, which is get it sold.

So once the property does sell, essentially from there, the seller is going to get a second payment for any upside that happens after the resale. So with this program, you know, they're benefiting from the full market price of the property. They're essentially just getting that into payments. So they're getting the majority  of the money upfront, less the mortgage payoff, and then any upside that happens after the resale is what they get.

It minus the fixing costs Of course. Yeah, the second portion of the transaction does look a little bit more like a traditional sale with uh, Closing cost commissions paid out. We take a program fee and anything remaining from there goes to them, right? So let's talk about the program fee. It's another reason that I like zoom castle so much is the program fees are  Just more favorable to a seller.

I'll just leave it at that. Absolutely. Let's talk about those  So what I like about our program fee. I mean, obviously you can offset some of that cost by going in and doing the work and hopefully selling the home for more. So that's one benefit. Um, in general, I would say our program fee as a whole typically ranges anywhere between 4 to 7 percent on average.

Um, now, obviously that's going to vary based on each property. So how we determine our fees is essentially in two parts. So there is a base fee that we charge. That's a flat fee based on the resale value of the property, and essentially that fee is on a sliding scale. So it's going to be dependent on how much we advance to the seller on most transactions.

Again, just depending on what the details are, we typically advance anywhere from 50 to 70%. So just to kind of give you a range, you know, that would bring the base fee for the program fee anywhere between 4 to 5%. All right. So that's just a flat fee off the top. Um, and I think of it kind of like a loan, because the money we're advancing to the seller, you know, we're loaning it to them prior to the home actually selling.

So again, based on what that amount is, we'll determine what that fee is. Um, in addition to that, we have a monthly fee or a carrying cost if you want to look at it that way. Um, it's 0. 99% Of the resale value, and it essentially approves for the time that Zoom Casa will own the property. So it typically, you know, we, we prefer to close on the property just prior to the homeowner moving on.

That way we can keep those fees down as much as possible. But it's going to pretty much take into account any time for possible renovations, uh, days on market until we can get an offer and time for closing with the new buyer. So, usually once we have a better understanding of kind of what that's going to look like, I usually like to prepare some scenarios for the homeowner so they can get an idea of kind of best and worst case scenario and we can gauge pretty much what those fees might look like for them.

Right. So, here's how I think about it anyway. And everybody can think about it however you want.  Are there fees in there for curing costs? Well, of course there are. There are. And there's fees for fixing. Of course there is, right? Nobody can do this for free. But at the end of the day, if you had a house, and again, I'm just using it as an example of making up the numbers because I can do the math without a calculator.

You got a million dollar house. You do the fix up and you sell for 1. 2 million. You got an extra 200, 000. And I know your program costs wouldn't be, you know, a hundred thousand, but let's say that they were,  you still made a hundred thousand dollars more money  without ever having to do any of the work.

Absolutely. And when I really look at it. No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, zoom cost is very transparent about all of these. I mean, we have all of these discussions up front. We run the, you know, the numbers, um, you know, any information that the client needs to feel comfortable and better understand kind of what this may look like for them.

We're happy to do that up front, whereas, you know, sometimes there's hidden things down the road with maybe other options that may be available. You don't have to worry about that with us. These are all the conversations we have up front. It's all listed in our um, Contracts or agreements, you know, so everything's right there for them to see black and white I mean one of the things that's critical for you guys in the real estate industry to know and really is a home seller Everything is done by contract.

It's in writing. You're initialing you're signing It's really hard for somebody to come back and say well. No, I didn't Know that when it's in a contract  and nobody wants that one way or the other, right? So as an agent listening to this, you don't want that hassle and headache So you want to make sure that everything you do is in writing to protect yourself your seller And your, um, and Zoom Casa, right?

Because everybody in the transaction has to win to make this good transaction. It's the way it is. A couple of caveats that I would tell you if you're an agent listening to this.  Before you actually put the property in the MLS, have Danielle do this up front.  Yeah, absolutely. The reason for that is they will have it appraised  But if it's in mls your purchase price is the list price then right? 

Um, yes, correct So here's the thing folks if you have a house that just needed a ton of work  and you listed it for 500 000 just because my god, they need a hundred thousand dollars in work But if somebody actually came in and did it, you could sell it for seven 50  mm-Hmm. . Absolutely. You don't wanna do that.

The seller has the say so. Absolutely. And so get the appraised value by doing that before you actually list it. That's all right. It's a simple process. And that way you're doing the right thing. Yeah, you're doing the right thing by the seller. You're doing the right thing by Zoom Casa. And we earn our money because we're doing the right thing for both parties. 

And we really empower the agents to really, again, do what they do best. I mean, there's all kinds of strategies for selling a home once it goes on the market. So again, some people may price it a little under to, you know, get more, uh, activity happening upfront. Maybe they sell a little over cause they want some buffer room in terms of negotiating on the price.

We, um, you know, empower the agent to work with their agent and do what they feel is best when the home is initially listed. So we don't get in the middle of that, right. And so the, the way that the commissions work for an agent, pretty simple, right? If you, whatever you listed it for, we're going to list it for two and a half, 3%, whatever it is.

They're going to get paid that right, Danielle. One thing I want to add to that, what's great is we do on our full commission, whatever they negotiate with their clients, but kind of the benefit to the agent is because this is a two step or a two transaction deal, they can essentially get paid on both transactions.

So we have some agents who are. Where they may take, you know, a little advance on the 1st transaction and then get the rest after the resale, um, you know, or they may take all, uh, all of their commissions. Once the home resales and take nothing up front, I've seen it reverse. I've seen them take their full commission on the 1st and we just.

Give commission to the buyer's agent on the resale, um, that we have the flexibility to do that because it is two transactions. So I say, you know, in terms of the numbers, we can, you know, run all the numbers and look at some different scenarios and whatever makes the most sense for the agent and the client.

That's what we can do. So let me do the math for you agents listening or watching because. Well, it'll help. Would you rather get a 3%? I'm going to use the million dollars again. Would you rather get 3 percent on a million dollars or 3 percent on 1. 2?  Right. But it's a cash flow issue for each agent, right?

Maybe you need that cash flow right now and that's okay. The good news is you have flexibility. And in most of the cash offer platforms that I've seen, you don't have that flexibility. And I also don't have never seen, and I, trust me, I pay attention to this stuff.  Uh, a cash offer that will come in and appraise the house and pay you the appraised value, right?

You're going to, you're going to submit an offer. Let's take that same hundred thousand dollars. And I'll use a real life example. One of my agents just did one for about a million dollar house and the cash offer came back at 725.  Okay. Folks, here's what I'm going to tell you. If you go in to a listing presentation and say, I do have an offer for you for 7.

25, let's assume that they're not a motivated, it's not a probate, it's not a elderly person, a family that needs to sell, any of those motivated factors, and you go in and bring a cash offer in at 7. 25, the likelihood of you actually getting that listing is zero.  You've so offended the potential seller. 

Right. That you're shooting yourself in the foot so you don't do it. So the beauty of what ZoomCasa does, you can say, Hey, we can get a cash offer at the appraised value of the house.  Absolutely. Now we're going to have some more flexibility. If there's things that need to be done, or we think we could get a higher price, but you need to move on, close on your other house, whatever those different scenarios are,  it gives the seller flexibility.

And the way that you can make more money as a real estate agent is to be able to help your clients solve their problems. They may need to move fast. They may not want to do the work, whatever their problems are. The more opportunity that you have to solve those problems. The more people will hire you it really is that simple in our business Yeah, absolutely And I feel like more homeowners are more educated now these days, especially with the internet and there's so many different options out there So they're almost coming to agents now saying what can you offer me?

Not not everybody's looking just to sell traditionally now They're looking for options So having this in your back pocket and knowing that it could be one of the better options out there I think and know this guys You Your clients are going to the different websites that they're advertising. Like if you're in markets that the open doors and offer pads and those guys work in, they're going there.

Then they get the offer of the million and it's 725. I won't tell you which of the companies did it, but you'd figure it out, right? So they look at that. And then if you call them up and you bring up cash offer and they were already,  what's the right word? irritated by that 725, 000 offer and you bring up the word cash offer, same thing.

You have a problem. Now you've got to simmer them down.  When you can say, Hey, we can explore cash offer. The vendor that I work with will actually appraise the house and pay you appraised market value.  Right. You took that irritation and you know, that, that, what would we want to call it, that dueling between the seller and the agent. 

It warrants competition. No guys here. We're here to take and do this and if it works for you, great And if it doesn't great, it's about options because here's what I want you to remember guys as a seller They can sell it on their own  They can hire any agent right Millions of agents they can hire the mega agents the people that are all over tv radio You all know have them in your market, right? 

They can hire a discount company  Or so many people have a relative. That's a You You know part time agent that all they'll just do it for free.  The seller has options if you don't have options  Chances are great. You're not going to be the one they pick  Absolutely. So zoom cost is just another tool in your tool belt when it's applicable.

It's killer If it's not applicable, that's okay. It got you into conversation And quite honestly guys it positions you As somebody who's more of an expert and somebody who actually does bring and offer solutions To the table  instead of going in and talking about well I've been in the business for 20 years and my clients all love me and I love kittens and like all the normal crap That y'all talk about in a listing presentation  Here's my tip for you solve people's problems.

You'll get hired more  I think this is a great thing too because I do get a lot of calls from agents who are kind of freaking out because they took a listing, it's not selling, and now they're getting questioned, what are my other options? And to have ZoomCasa in your back pocket just as a backup option even for a listing that may not be selling for one reason or another, um, to be able to come back to us and say, you know, get an offer and present that to your client, say, hey, you know, let's give this, you know, this much more time.

If it doesn't work out, you know, we can fall back on this offer, um, has been a great tool for a lot of the agents that I've talked to recently, just depending on every market's a little different, every property. Uh, but I've seen a lot of those situations where homes are sitting and the sellers are starting to freak out.

So then they, they come to us and they're like, okay, here's, here's a great solution. Right. And you can certainly do that. But what I would recommend to you folks is do this work up front, get an offer up front. So you know what that, Offer is absolutely right. Number one. Number two, once it's listed and you've reduced the price three or four times That's when they're going to get paid.

Yeah, so do the work up front  go into your listing presentation with solutions and offer You know offers  But they don't have to take it right then and there sure, right? So being an agent you're just being prepared up front for this Which is really what an agent who deserves a three percent commission Does yeah In my humble opinion,  so, um, so this is simply gives you more opportunities and options.

And so what we're going to do, if you're watching this on YouTube, we'll put Danielle's contact information, phone number, email, et cetera, in there. Um, if you're listening to it on a podcast Daniel tell them how they could get a hold of you  Honestly, I'm I try to be super available to agents because you never know when you need to you know Get me on the line to talk to a client Um, feel free to call me anytime I can provide my phone number shoot me an email You can text.

I do text. I also have a Calendly link. So if you just want to jump on my calendar to discuss the program, um, we can kind of go through the details. If you have a client who wants to hear the details of the program and we can go through questions, I'm always ready and available to, you know, jump in and go through all that information.

So you're welcome to just book on my calendar as well. And she is awesome folks. That's not made up. I mean, my agents use a lot. And, um, So make sure that you, um, take advantage of that. You know, if you do have questions on scenarios like, Hey, I've got this listing and you know, is this possible reach out and get the answer, right?

One thing I want to add to that too, is I know there's kind of the shift happening in the real estate market right now with a lot of automation. And, you know, you put in the address and the information, they, time to shoot you an offer, which is great. But I think a lot of times there's other nuances and details about the property and the seller that are important to kind of figuring out the numbers and kind of fine tuning that information before you present it to your client.

So with me, you have a real person. I pick up the phone. I'm always available. You can get in touch with me. Um and we can, you know, make any adjustments needed to prepare the offer that makes the most sense to the client. Um, Because I do see sometimes a lot of these offers that they've received from other companies and they're just very generic and I think sometimes really going through the details and again making changes and fine tuning things to better suit the client is really going to be the best offer to present to them.

And think of it this way as the seller, folks. Would you rather have an offer based on an algorithm? Right. Or an offer based on an appraisal? Correct. That's the huge difference to me. Yeah, absolutely. As the markets have turned and changed,  the, many of the cash offers have based it on an algorithm. Hey, they've changed their algorithm in a substantially negative way and I don't blame them in any way.

It's a different market, right? What would sell in two days, two or three years ago, now could take two months. So they have to factor it in. So it's not a knock against anybody. It's just understanding algorithms are tweaked to base on the market. Where for me, I'd rather have a real live human appraiser go out there and make the determination than an algorithm.

And I'd be willing to bet you a lot of money if we interviewed 100 sellers, 99 of them would say, no, I would want it on the appraisal, not on the algorithm. Right. Absolutely. In my opinion. Absolutely.  Folks, we're going to put the information in. If it's in YouTube, it'll be in the description. It will put Danielle's contact information in the podcast down below so that you can reach out and contact her.

And as always, I look forward to talking to you next week. And remember, if you list, you last. Talk to you next week. Thanks, Bob. Thanks, Danielle.